{"id":908,"date":"2012-07-21T13:31:52","date_gmt":"2012-07-21T11:31:52","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/investigate-islam.com\/web\/web\/?p=908"},"modified":"2012-07-21T13:31:52","modified_gmt":"2012-07-21T11:31:52","slug":"religious-mysteries-101-the-crucifixion-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/investigate-islam.com\/web\/?p=908","title":{"rendered":"Religious Mysteries 101 \u2013 The Crucifixion, Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"


\n<\/span><\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n

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But, hey, Christians tell us Jesus had to die for our sins. A typical conversation might go something like this:<\/span><\/p>\n

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\u00a0Monotheist:<\/em> Oh. So you believe God died?<\/span><\/p>\n

Trinitarian:<\/em> No, no, perish the thought. Only the man died.<\/span><\/p>\n

Monotheist:<\/em> In that case, the sacrifice didn\u2019t need to be divine, if only the man-part died.<\/span><\/p>\n

Trinitarian:<\/em> No, no, no. The man-part died, but Jesus\/God had to suffer on the cross to atone for our sins.<\/span><\/p>\n

Monotheist:<\/em> What do you mean \u201chad to\u201d? God doesn\u2019t \u201chave to\u201d anything.<\/span><\/p>\n

Trinitarian:<\/em> God needed a sacrifice and a human wouldn\u2019t do. God needed a sacrifice big enough to atone for the sins of humankind, so He sent His only begotten son.<\/span><\/p>\n

Monotheist:<\/em> Then we have a different concept of God. The God I believe in doesn\u2019t have needs. My God never wants to do something but can\u2019t because He needs something to make it possible. My God never says, \u201cGee, I want to do this, but I can\u2019t. First I need this certain something. Let\u2019s see, where can I find it?\u201d In that scenario God would be dependent upon whatever entity could satisfy His needs. In other words, God would have to have a higher god. For a strict monotheist that\u2019s just not possible, for God is One, supreme, self-sufficient, the source of all creation. Humankind has needs, God doesn\u2019t. We need His guidance, mercy and forgiveness, but He doesn\u2019t need<\/em> anything in exchange. He may desire servitude and worship, but he doesn\u2019t need<\/em> it.<\/span><\/p>\n

Trinitarian:<\/em> But that\u2019s the point; God tells us to worship Him, and we do that through prayer. But God is pure and holy, and humankind are sinners. We can\u2019t approach God directly because of the impurity of our sins. Hence, we need an intercessor to pray through.<\/span><\/p>\n

Monotheist:<\/em> Question\u2014did Jesus sin?<\/span><\/p>\n

Trinitarian:<\/em> Nope, he was sinless.<\/span><\/p>\n

Monotheist:<\/em> How pure was he?<\/span><\/p>\n

Trinitarian:<\/em> Jesus? 100% pure. He was God\/Son of God, so he was 100% holy.<\/span><\/p>\n

Monotheist:<\/em> But then we can\u2019t approach Jesus any more than we can God, by your criterion. Your premise is that humankind can\u2019t pray directly to God because of the incompatibility of sinful man and the purity of anything 100% holy. If Jesus was 100% holy, then he\u2019s no more approachable than God. On the other hand, if Jesus wasn\u2019t<\/em> 100% holy, then he was himself tainted and couldn\u2019t approach God directly, much less be God, the Son of God, or partner with God.<\/span><\/p>\n

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A fair analogy might be that of going to meet a supremely righteous man\u2014the holiest person alive, holiness radiating from his being, oozing from his pores. So we go to see him, but are told the \u201csaint\u201d won\u2019t agree to the meeting. In fact, he can\u2019t stand to be in the same room with a sin-tainted mortal. We can talk with his receptionist, but the saint himself? Fat chance! He\u2019s much too holy to sit with us lesser beings. So what do we think now? Does he sound holy, or crazy?<\/span><\/p>\n

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Common sense tells us holy people are approachable\u2014the holier, the more approachable. So why should humankind need an intermediary between us and God? And why would God demand the sacrifice of what Christians propose to be “His only begotten son” when, according to Hosea 6:6, \u201cI desire mercy, and not sacrifice.\u201d This lesson was worthy of two New Testament mentions, the first in Matthew 9:13, the second in Matthew 12:7. Why, then, are clergy teaching that Jesus had to be sacrificed? And if he was sent for this purpose, why did he pray to be saved?<\/span><\/p>\n

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Perhaps Jesus’ prayer is explained by Hebrews 5:7, which states that because Jesus was a righteous man, God answered his prayer to be saved from death: \u201cIn the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission\u201d (Hebrews 5:7, NRSV). Now, what does \u201cGod heard his prayer\u201d mean\u2014that God heard it loud and clear and ignored it? No, it means God answered his prayer. It certainly can\u2019t mean that God heard and refused the prayer, for then the phrase \u201cbecause of his reverent submission\u201d would be nonsensical, along the lines of, \u201cGod heard his prayer and refused it because he was a righteous man.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

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Hm. So wouldn’t that suggest that Jesus might not have been crucified in the first place?<\/span><\/p>\n

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But let’s back up and ask ourselves, why do we have to believe to be saved? On one hand, original sin is held to be binding, whether we believe in it or not. On the other hand, salvation is held to be conditional upon acceptance (i.e., belief) of the crucifixion and atonement of Jesus. In the first case, belief is held to be irrelevant; in the second, it\u2019s required. The question arises, \u201cDid Jesus pay the price or not?\u201d If he paid the price, then our sins are forgiven, whether we believe or not. If he didn\u2019t pay the price, it doesn\u2019t matter either way. Lastly, forgiveness doesn\u2019t have<\/em> a price. A person can\u2019t forgive another\u2019s debt and still demand repayment. The argument that God forgives, but only if given a sacrifice He says He doesn\u2019t want in the first place (see Hosea 6:6, Matthew 9:13 and 12:7) drags a wing and cartwheels down the runway of rational analysis. From where, then, does the formula come? According to scripture (the aforementioned anonymous scripture lacking manuscript uniformity), it\u2019s not from Jesus. Furthermore, the Christian formula for salvation hinges off the concept of original sin, and we have to ask ourselves why we should believe that concept if we can’t substantiate the rest of the Christian formula.<\/span><\/p>\n

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But that is a different discussion.<\/span><\/p>\n

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Signed,<\/span><\/p>\n

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Anonymous (Just Kidding)<\/span><\/p>\n

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Copyright \u00a9 2007 Laurence B. Brown<\/span><\/p>\n

Permission granted for free and unrestricted reproduction if reproduced in entirety without omissions, additions or alterations.<\/span><\/p>\n

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A graduate of Cornell University, Brown University Medical School and George Washington University Hospital residency program, Laurence B. Brown is an ophthalmic surgeon, a retired Air Force officer, and the medical director and chief ophthalmologist of a major eye center. He is also an ordained interfaith minister with a doctorate in divinity and a PhD in religion, and the author of a number of books of comparative religion and reality-based fiction. His works can be found on his website, www.LevelTruth.com.<\/span><\/p>\n

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\u00a0 But, hey, Christians tell us Jesus had to die for our sins. A typical conversation might go something like this: \u00a0 \u00a0Monotheist: Oh. So you believe God died? Trinitarian: No, no, perish the...<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[119],"tags":[102,281,128],"class_list":["post-908","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-comparative-religion","tag-christianity","tag-comparative-religion","tag-mysteries"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/investigate-islam.com\/web\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/908","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/investigate-islam.com\/web\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/investigate-islam.com\/web\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/investigate-islam.com\/web\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/investigate-islam.com\/web\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=908"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/investigate-islam.com\/web\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/908\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":909,"href":"https:\/\/investigate-islam.com\/web\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/908\/revisions\/909"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/investigate-islam.com\/web\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=908"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/investigate-islam.com\/web\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=908"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/investigate-islam.com\/web\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=908"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}